CapitolFax.com - Latest Comments in Lessons that must be learned

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Dudley Sharp — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 08:24:37 -0000

To Lynn S:

It would help if you clarified your criticisms. Had I thought there were logical fallacies, I would have corrected them, already.

FYI, I get a lot of criticism like yours, meaning, without specifics. Generally, when I ask for specifics, the people just go away.

I encourage scrutiny and a specific review of facts and reason.

So, Lynn, be very specific and I will be, as well.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Lynn S — Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:43:20 -0000

Dudley, the article you have posted a link to has numerous logical fallacies. You'll have to better if you want to convince us to support the death penalty.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Dudley Sharp — Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:10:19 -0000

â€œThe Death Penalty: More Protection for Innocentsâ€
http://homicidesurvivors.co...

We are all hopeful that both governmental (or individual) practices, which result in innocent deaths, are constantly minimizing that risk. There are two ways to do that. 1) stop the practice or 2) improve the implementation of the practice, in order to lessen that risk.

In doing so, we need look at both sides of the equations. With the death penalty, usually, anti death penalty folks only look at the possibility of executing an innocent. What they fail to do, is to look at the other side of the equation, which is, what is the risk to innocents without the death penalty, which inquiry results in the reality that innocents are more at risk with a life sentence.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Lynn S — Thu, 30 Jul 2009 00:23:16 -0000

Will be back tomorrow when I have more time to go over some of the outreageous statements made in this thread. Until then:

Amy states: "the number of wrongful convictions is tiny compared to the monstrous actons of the evil who prey on our streets every day."

Perhaps Rich or another source can provide us with a date and possibly even a link to a story the Tribune did about 7 years ago. It was about a robbery (and possibly a rape) in the Chicago area where someone was arrested and went to prison. The problem? The convicted prisoner wasn't the person responsible for the crime, and the two guys who did it went on to commit something like 50 more crimes before they were finally caught. The story, however, ran in the middle of the week and probably didn't get the attention it deserved.

If you don't want to oppose wrongful convictions because you feel that anyone who is accused of a crime is obviously guilty, then perhaps you would prefer to oppose wrongful convictions because the real criminals who engaged in the acts that got the wrong guy sent to prison so often go on to commit other crimes after they got away with the first one. They don't stop and say, "Oh, I got lucky. Perhaps I should consider getting a real job and some better friends and start living a better life."

And don't forget, we waste taxpayer's money on trials, feeding/housing/medical care for prisoners when we have the wrong guy (or gal) in prison for a crime they didn't commit.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Amy — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:46:07 -0000

every time i read about the Center for Wrongful Convictions, i think someone should start the Center for Wrongful Acquittals. Since double jeopardy can't occur, the right thing for enterprising reporters and researchers to think about is.....start with this crime, the missing Bradley sisters, and see if you can find those who took them. here's hoping they are still alive.
the number of wrongful convictions is tiny compared to the montrous actions of the evil who prey on our streets every day.
there were 15 shootings last night in Chicago. find the guilty.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Rich Miller — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 18:17:35 -0000

Ah, Wingman. The guy who compared LMadigan to an Iranian dictator. lol

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Wingman — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 18:14:08 -0000

Find it ironic that some are complaining about daily herald cheerleading for prosecution. When has the big bad downtown press done anything but cheerlead Lisa madigan? Still waiting for national press to be anything other than obama's PR shop.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Ghost — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:12:43 -0000

I have always taken a simpler (perhaps too simplistic) appraoch to the detah penalty. By the time you pay the costs of all the appeals, the extra prosecution expense, and the increase cost of housing and carign for a death row inmate, we spend far more money then if we locked them up for life. I am skeptical that more people would commit heinous crimes if th penalty was life in prison v death. In my limited expereince, heinous crimes tend to flow from people with other issues who would have done what they did regardless of the death penalty.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Rich Miller — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:45:18 -0000

===Are you saying all those freed from Death Row are indeed actually innocent? ===

OK, that's enough.

You've twisted people's words here one too many times today. Take a break.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Cop defender — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:41:21 -0000

girl lawyer....falsely accused then is just an opinion. By the same standard, Cruz was found not guilty, not falsely convicted. I am familiar with the DuPage 7 case and the jury openly scoffed at most of the evidence against the lawmen. Are you saying all those freed from Death Row are indeed actually innocent?

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Amy — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:27:47 -0000

Hank, I found the source of your quote....on Amazon.com, in reviews for a book on the case by Protess and Warden. it's a quote in a favorable review about a book by two guys who are against the death penalty. odd reading today how angst ridden those are who now find that Cruz wants Dugan to get death.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Objective Dem — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:15:12 -0000

It is worth citing some of the people who did the right thing despite the impact on their careers. I did a quick google and pulled the following from a LA times article. (I also find the Burris quote interesting.)

"Mary Brigid Kenney urged her then-boss, Illinois Atty. Gen. Roland Burris, to confess error, writing in her resignation: "I realized that I was being asked to help execute an innocent man, and certainly a man who had been grossly denied a right to a fair trial."

Burris' response: "It is not for me to place my judgment over a jury, regardless of what I think."

Seven years earlier, John Sam, one of the first Du Page County sheriff's investigators on the case, also quit in protest--and testified for the defense."

Re: Lessons that must be learned

wordslinger — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:58:33 -0000

The Cruz case is the ugliest episode in Illinois politics and government in my lifetime.

Jim Ryan, Roland Burris and Joe Birkett were quite willing to let innocent men be executed in order to protect their political careers. It doesn't get any lower than that.

The mystery in the Nicarico case is how Dugan wasn't Prime Suspect #1 from the get-go. He was well-known to law enforcement at the time.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Abe's Ghost — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:57:23 -0000

Objective Dem is correct in adding Burris to the list. The Assistant AG assigned to handle one of the appeals resigned instead of taking a case she determined, correctly and properly, was one of wrongful conviction. Burris did a dodge and weave (how prescient) and simply said he was relying on the jury's verdict. As to Cop Defender, there were other officers, I believe at least one Sheriff's Dept and an asst. prosecutor who doubted the cases and got slapped down by the powers that be for questioning the party line. So don't try and make this an anti-cop or anti-prosecutor thing. This is/was serious misconduct protected by the political establishment in DuPage. No amount of obfuscation with trees can hide the forest.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Objective Dem — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:51:42 -0000

Cop Defender,

Girllawyer did a good job presenting my view.

While I think the vast majority of cops are good/very good. I also know that there are corrupt cops, stupid cops and over zealous cops. Just like there are corrupt, stupid and over zealous people in every line of work.

Putting police,religious leaders, doctors, teachers, or whoever on a pedestal and pretending they can do no wrong is dangerous. We strengthen these professions when we remove/discipline people who violate the trust in these professions. Defending them just because they were able to get hired doesn't help anyone.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

train111 — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:28:10 -0000

Judge Dredd

As we can see from the Jon Burge cases in Chicago--a 'full confession' doesn't necessarily mean squat!!!!

train111

Re: Lessons that must be learned

girllawyer — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:28:10 -0000

Cop Defender - being found "not guilty" is not the same as being found "falsely accused". Frequently juries believe a defendant is probably guilty but conclude that there is not enough evidence to return a guilty verdict given the state's very high burden in a criminal case of "beyond a reasonable doubt". That is what they are required to do. But it is grossly inaccurate to equate "not guilty" to "falsely accused".

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Amy — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:18:49 -0000

Hank at 12:31, source of the quote?

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Cop defender — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:17:24 -0000

Objective Dem....all the "horror stories" you read in the media were looked at by a special prosecutor who indicted seven officials. That evidence was put before a jury, which found it not credible. So, in essence, the law enforcement officials were falsely accused. What about them? Or do we only care about falsely accused thugs like Cruz, who already had a criminal record and admitted to felonies in this case?

Re: Lessons that must be learned

girllawyer — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:15:35 -0000

"now that (Birkett) has totally failed to convict the right guy - a guilty plea doesn't count" Doesn't count toward what? Whatever else one might think about the sad history of this case, please don't perpetuate the myth that a guilty plea is any less of a conviction than a jury verdict. It isn't and it is a disservice to victims and and the criminal justice system to say that it is.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Objective Dem — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:15:23 -0000

I should clarify that Birkett and Ryan did not personally get involved in "framing" Cruz or the others. But they should have had the integrity to recognize that there was no real evidence against them while the evidence did indicate that Dugan committed the crime.

In order to be bi-partisan, Attorney General - now Senator - Burris also avoided taking action in spite of the evidence. I remember one of his top aides resigning in protest.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Rich Miller — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:02:42 -0000

===I know this may not be a popular sentiment, but the system worked (in this case).===

You gotta be kidding me. Yeah, it worked after people were wrongly kept on death row for years. After the state Supreme Court repeatedly threw out convictions.

How is that "working"?

Seriously, that was messed up.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Anon — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:01:19 -0000

I know this may not be a popular sentiment, but the system worked (in this case). Multiple appeals over years and advocates working on behalf of death row inmates did prevent innocent men from being put to death. If anyone thinks that capital punishment cases should be slam dunk every time, then the perspective of crime and punishment is way off. Nothing is as black and white as it may appear. To scrap the whole system because the system worked (preventing someone from being wrongly killed) does not make sense.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Objective Dem — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:32:17 -0000

Train 111, You need to switch doctors if you are going to one that wouldn't change treatment if another doctor misdiagnosed you and your life was in jeopardy.

There is no excuse for Birkett or Jim Ryan's actions. The papers didn't provide a run-down of the false and misleading evidence presented, but it was disgusting. For instance, they were saying a footprint on the door that skewed left could be made by a shoe that skewed right due to the wind. Or they said that shoeprints under a window indicated that Dugan didn't act alone - even though the shoeprints were from a small child. The original confession came when they told a mentally slow young man that he could get a box full of money (which they showed him) and a parade if he could give them evidence. He implicated Cruz and then when they pressed him on how he knew, he said he saw it happen. Then he was charged.

Yes Cruz is a punk, a jerk, and could have handled himself better. But that hardly excuses what happened to him.

Re: Lessons that must be learned

Hank — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:31:37 -0000

Moon
Jaclyn Dowaliby murdered and Richard M Daley about to run for Mayor who pushed through the arrest of the parents due to the hysteria of the public/media for a solution. Daley was now mayor when the trials began but the mother was acquitted, father convicted then the case overturned when the facts came out.
"With the media clamoring for action, Capt. Daniel McDevitt of the Illinois State Police took over the case and accused Jaclyn's parents, Cynthia and David, of the crime. Given the paucity of evidence, prosecutors were reluctant to act until ordered to do so by their boss, Richard M. Daley, who was about to run for mayor of Chicago"
Lot's more to read. I think they even made a movie out of it but of course this is a subject that the tame media never brings up with king Richie