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But what is likely to happen is that Joe White will be resigning from the U of I, maybe very soon, from what I read.
The Springfield media popped up with this 40 trains a day rubbish and that nonsense figure has been thrown around ever since--mostly by politicians trying to scare people into buying their line of thought.
Somewhere a Union Pacific executive was quoted as saying that the line after being improved will have the CAPACITY TO HANDLE 40 TRAINS PER DAY. That is totally different from the idea that they are going to put 40 trains per day on the route.
Presently Amtrak runs its 5 trains each way per day and Union Pacific runs a north one day and south the next between East St Louis and Bloomington--so that's presently 11 trains. All the hype is about UP opening up its Global 4 intermodal terminal south of Joliet next June and routing more freights onto the line--40 trains per day if you ask the politicians and media who are so detached from reality it isn't even funny. If you look at what UP is planning, they want to shift their international intermodal business to the new terminal. How much does that amount to? As of right now probably about 2 trains southbound and 1-3 trains northbound depending on the day of the week. It's an increase but far from the 40 trains per day nonsense being scramed out by the local media and the village politicians. But, what would politics be without scare tactics??
train111
You're right; bypassing Springfield is a non-starter and proof that this alderman hasn't thought this one through. The point is to link the state capital with the state's largest city, flagship university, and nearest large city neighbor. I'm not sure where the Springfield station would be placed, but the general idea behind HSR stations is that they're catalysts for new development that should be concentrated in already developed areas -- not in "greenfield" sites that would simply create more sprawl. As such, the Springfield station can, and probably will boost nearby property values. That a big economic opportunity.
NowInTx,
Putting the HSR line underground was my first thought, too. I recently rode the Eurostar from London to Paris, and that's what France and the UK did on sections of the route -- tunneled under portions of cities. I'm not sure how much extra cost that would be for this line, but perhaps it's worth exploring.
No thanks! I doubt you'd like it either Rich. There must be a better way to "mitigate" the effects. That said, Kris Theilan's proposal is nuts. (And I know and like Kris)
The bus station moved because Greyhound broke its driver's union and new hires weren't qualified to drive thru town. They moved stations all over the country outside of downtowns.
You say that as if it's a done deal. Not so sure it is.
So much for your little hamlet.
UP has two tracks bisecting DeKalb and, since the railport went in over in Rochelle, about 80 trains a day run through here. Plus, some trains have to wait on others just outside of town. They are not up to speed by the time they come through so it takes even longer.
If UP is telling you 40-train capacity and there's a railport in your future, you should consider the strong possibility of their meeting the capacity. Also, if the tracks belonging to UP are shared by passenger trains, the freights have the right of way.
The freight line companies are trying to steer as much $$ of the project toward their purposes as possible while no one is looking at the big picture.
It does not take a lot of knowledge to understand that you do not want HSR as well as freight traffic moving through the middle of a populated area. The noise and the hazardous freight should be routed through commercial/industrial areas to minimize the effects on people's homes.
The best planning I have seen envisions multimodal transportation centers outside of population centers where air, rail and roadway transport intersect so travelers can change to/from complementing transportation modes along with a feeder system into the urban area.
I guess that would explain why the Decatur "bus station" moved to a run-down motel near I-72...
Also, the 1600' long overpassess needed for the project to be on the 3rd St. cooridor will stifle business in Downtown Spfld, completely disrupt the good things that are happening in the Med Dist and literally bury the Dana Thomas House.
The move to the 10th St corridor has been discussed openly for at least the past 6 years, perhaps longer. The mass transit dist has been seeking funding for an intermodal facility for years and city planners have been focused on 10th st as the HSR/Freight corridor as well.
UP doesn't own those tracks and wants complete control of the HSR issue in Illinois so that the $8B is spent on improving their tracks. The HSR issue is secondary to UP's plans. Without the $8B, UP would not be in the HSR game at all.
40 trains a day is the conservative estimate of train volume thru Springfield's downtown, historic district as well as the medical district. For evidence of this please consider some light reading:
http://www.co.sangamon.il.us/Departments/Region...
The aldemerman has not done enough research prior to his press release.
The locals plan to consolidate on the 10th street line will actually provide greater access than exists today between the east and west side. They will be able to provide additional underpasses and possibly eliminate all at grade rail crossings in Springfield if done correctly.
But the idea of running around Springfield is not bad. It would be easier to acquire the land from undeveloped or farm property than through developed areas with housing. UP can build the tracks just the way they want, no compromises with any existing infrastructure. The new "transportation hub" that Springfield envisions could be put in the same area as the airport, with lots of undeveloped land for the hub and a big parking lot. Neither downtown nor the east side are affected. The west side continues to expand because it now has access to a transportation hub.
Rough guess, 20 miles of new track plus crossings. Easier to build below grade if you want. Versus new track through town, plus 9 multi-million dollar overpasses. I believe, in both time and expenses, the outlier route is quicker, easier and cheaper to build.
Now freight traffic is a different matter.
Again--that's the maximum capacity of the line as proposed. Whether or not Union Pacific or Amtrak will actually route that many trains on that line is a different story all together. Given todays market conditions, the idea of 40 more trains is laughable. Keep in mind UP's plans are for international traffic going to the new terminal at Joliet. At this present time the Panama Canal is being enlargened to allow the largest container ships to pass through which would mean containers for the east coast would not have to be offloaded on the west coast and hauled across the country by train. That could have a very detrimental effect on the same business that UP is planning to put on that corridor.
Again, the 40 trains per day is a capacity figure, but politicians and the media run with it like there will be that many trains on that route tommorrow!!
train111
If anyone has any evidence to the contrary that this 40 trains a day will happen, feel free to show me. Otherwise, enough of that stuff.
Final warning. Deletions will follow.
Nothing else in SPI is "hi speed" why start now?
That said, I agree with the above post that shaving 30 min off the trip aint gonna bring throngs of people to Springfield. You could simple raise the speed limit on the interstate to accomplish that a lot cheaper.
As a fan of the former GM&O I'd hate to see the historic trackage die, but progress is progress...
Now, where should this great idea be put?
Downtown? The HSR will be a huge physical barrier cutting directly through the middle of Springfield's historic downtown. It would tower over the historic Dana Thomas house, drowning it in shadows half the day. It would be an insurmountable wall forcing traffic into those east-west streets with overpasses. It will be an eyesore for generations to come until it would be finally removed.
Tenth Street? This track will preserve Historic Downtown. But it cuts off East Springfield from the rest of town. What is lost then? People on foot who would have to walk around this massive wall of ugly in order to find the viaducts on South Grand Avenue and Stanford. But, it would actually cause less disruption and destruction than a Third Street route.
Now - back to reality. High Speed Rail is a freakin' joke, and this is coming from a guy who rode trains nearly everyday in Chicago and in Europe. If there was a demand here - Amtrak would be seeing it. There is no market for this. Building it would cost taxpayer money, because no responsible business would take such a stupid gamble on something this Disneyesque.
Trains went over 100 miles per hour - sixty years ago! That didn't cause them to lose business, did it? What is considered HSR today is little more than a modern version of an outdated idea. It is a total waste of money - YOUR MONEY.
You see, we have two generations of supposedly enlightened citizenry who admire everything going on in Europe. They do not take in consideration the reality of countries the size of our states, cities and counties. They do not take into consideration the supremely high taxes robbing everyone in those little countries to support mass transit systems, including HSR. When you pay premium costs for HSR in most European countries - you are paying that on top of the massive taxes you already are paying for mass transit. The costs of HSR cannot be met in a free market.
So if this ugly wall goes up in Springfield, dividing the city whichever way it ends up dividing it - this thing won't fly. We'll end up with a cross-version of the Great Wall of China and the Abraham Lincoln Capitol Airport, and empty boondoggle sucking at the teats of our wallets and our children's wallets, and our grandchildren's wallets, until we finally get fed up with it in fifty years and rip it down.
Then we'll spend trillions fixing the damage to downtown Springfield - if we have any cash left, that is.
A movement of the rail corridors in Springfield was studied in the late '70s, and didn't happen because of the cost, the environmental issues (mostly floodplain), and difficulties related to how the corridor would run in the area of Lake Springfield and the powerplant. And that was in the '70s when there were fewer environmental regulations and passenger trains were not even in the mix. Springfield did a rail consolidation study in 2005 that recommended the consolidation of all three corridors to the Tenth St. one. IDOT knew about that study because they funded it.
As to the 40-60 train number. That originally came from the regional planning group and they even did a paper explaining how they came to that number, which is on their website. They needed a number for impact analysis, and since neither UP nor IDOT was willing to offer a number, they worked with current numbers to arrive at a conclusion. Now even UP is using that number in its correspondence to the locals, not as capacity , so its probably more than that. Looks like the planning folks estimate was pretty good.
UP recently said that they anticipate 22 new freights using the corridor due to their new intermodal facility (see State Journal-Register story on the facility). Plus the 18 trains mentioned in the MOU between UP and IDOT (16 high speed train trips per day plus the two Texas Eagle trains), if any of the current 10 Amtrak train trips remain, do the math.
The real question is, how could the state enter into an agreement with one railroad in March (not having talked with any other railroads), using a 7 year old environmental impact statement that only considered one rail line, fewer passenger trains and no additional freight trains, and only tell the locals in late May, then tell them that their opinion didn't matter because it was too late to make changes in the plan, and not expect some blow-back?
Try arguing with me based on what I said. Not on some goofy straw man.
That Joliet yard is going to feed a lot of new traffic our way eventually... I've read where 40% of the cars and car parts for and from Detroit will come thru that yard and thru the corridor in Springfield. Once the economy picks up, heck yes, we could see a large number of freights at all hours.
Everyone loves the passenger trains coming right downtown to revitalize the city core with tourists and convention-goers and even Chicago and STL commuters/shoppers. We just want the freight on a by-pass line, but UP doesn't own the 10th street tracks, nor the far west tracks by the airport, so quite understandably it is not interested in the additional costs and the need to coordinate with other railroads.
Springfield could have solved this a long time ago, studies and plans have creeped along since the 70's but it was always easier to procrastinate and defer a decision rather than risk the ire of anti-tax repubs and their constituents that dominated during those years. The dems in charge now are a very timid lot indeed, and I don't expect them to fix it either. Now it will be way more expensive to fix this for good. Third street contains the major part of the city sewer system, ripping out and relocating that to make a sub-grade train tunnel thru town would cost billion and years.
Most likely Springfield government will return to type and just let the clock run out on the free money rather than actually commit to something big. There are no visionaries in this city, nobody that cares what happens after they personally are gone.
If Davlin lets UP go ahead with 3rd street, he's done in Springfield, politically.
It has no technical merit and little feasibility and will die a quick death.
If anyone has any evidence to the contrary that this 40 trains a day will happen, feel free to show me. Otherwise, enough of that stuff.
Final warning. Deletions will follow.
From the SJR,
During a Sept. 9 meeting of the Illinois Commerce Commission, a Union Pacific vice president said the railroad foresees 22 freight trains and 18 passenger trains per day by 2017, putting the total at 40.
I think this indicates a plan, not just capacity
I've not been following this too closely, but maybe all seven overpasses aren't needed. A lot more work will be undertaken and the plan will be refined. Couldn't a vehicle overpass (later) be eliminated from the plan, the street ends terminated into plazas, and a pedestrian/bike overpass designed to connect the plazas, instead? Maybe there are some architecturally interesting things that could be done with the vehicle overpasses that are built, too. (Taylor, you made me chuckle. Why are "hideous" overpasses the only overpasses to consider?)
Please please stop.
The UP is going to set up Global 4 as a new container port south of Joliet. They will still have Global 1, Global 2,Global 3, and Yard Center (Canal Street behind Comsikey Park is slated to close) as Chicago container terminals as well. There is right now between 23 and 30 trains a day to all those terminals combined. Now when they build a new terminal do people think they are going to divert each and every train to that one place. Where does UP get the rest?? Are they supposed to pull trainloads of traffic out of thin air?? The traffic simply doesn't exist at this time to come up with 40 trains no matter what any politician or rabid neighborhood opponent may say.
Say it with me slowly. UP presently has between 23 and 30 trains of traffic to all of their 5 intermodal terminals in the Chicago area. There is no way that opening up a new terminal south of Joilet will lead to 40 trains per day additional traffic when that traffic simply doesn't exist.
UP has clearly spelled out their plans as to which traffic is to be shifted to Global 4
Come on--you guys have been looking at railfan and railroad employee rumor postings way too long.
train111
Sure UP stands to benefit from any public money poured into the Chicago-StLouis line. They benefitted when Metra put in that 3rd track between Geneva and Elburn when they expanded service too.
train111
"As he left Wednesday’s hearing, Payette reiterated that the 2008 track upgrades played no role in the railroad’s current wish to install a parallel track through Springfield and build overpasses to allow 22 freight trains and 18 passenger trains per day to travel through the city by 2017."
Go ahead. You can read it as slowly as you want.
The link: http://www.sj-r.com/high-speed-rail/x1170596332...
The addition of the second track requires a federal Environmental Assessment (sort of like an appendage to the approved Environmental Impact Statement of 2003, but in this case being done as a separate report). Before the EA can be approved, they will need to have a public process including hearing(s) and commentary from the public, the affected governments, and federal/state resource agencies. I guarantee this public outcry has put a serious unplanned monkey wrench into the high speed rail plans, considering the federal ARRA money deadlines.
The study of the alternative corridor, if extremely fast tracked, could take 18 months in this environment (not counting potential lawsuits that could tie the project up for years if not thrown out of court or settled quickly).
Also, no one is saying there "have" to be overpasses on the 3rd street corridor. The HSR trains are going to slow down to access the depot anyway. 40 trains a day? Even if it happens, there are many neigborhoods around Chicago that would love to have a *reduction* to 40 trains a day at their favorite RR crossing.
Bet the folks along the EJ&E line are hopping mad when they see the $$$ flung around for overpasses in Springfield on this project, when they might get 2 along the entire EJ&E line as a result of the CN acquisition.
The only reason the Environmental Assessment is required for the second track is because federal monies are being sought. UP could do it on their own dime without much red tape.
There used to be two tracks on 3rd street, but when Willard Ice's wife drove over the tracks while the gates were still down after the train had gone through -- and was hit broadside by another train headed in the other direction, killing Willard -- this is when the second track was taken out.
Why is UP so married to the 3rd street option? Because they own most of the trackage. B&O own a good section of the 10th street tracks, so UP would have to pay rent for their increased volume. It's all about money, folks. Not Springfield's best interest.
Reminder: Environmental Impact Assessments began because our IDOT destroyed downtown East St. Louis in the process of putting up the I-55 bridge. Let's not let Springfield be another IDOT victim.
Also, the 40 - 60 extra trains a day was given verbally by UP officials to city and county officials. I do not think UP put it in writing so there is probably not evidence. I could be wrong though.
40 train minimum has been well documented. If anyone cares enough to look around you will see the proof. Perhaps and energetic reporter could help us correct the record on the blog today.
Additionally, I agree with Six Degrees about environmental impact issues and the giant monkey wrench being created. It could derail the entire project.
For further info I refer Rich and others to Public Act 09-0545 that calls for early, ongoing and collaborative outreach with local community leaders and affected citizens impacted by IDOT projects. The public act requires projects to exist in harmony with their surroundings. It also calls for reasonable alternatives to be considered.
Clearly, IDOT has this on this project.
Unless they or their predecessors sold off some of the old Alton route right of way, UP have enough room to restore the original double track that existed along the entire route.
The point is that the federal $ is both a blessing and a curse to UP's plans. A blessing because it's less $ than they will have to spend, a curse because the whold deal could go up in smoke if certain dominoes start to fall.
I forgot the view from Lawrence behind the DTH was so beautiful currently.
Watch out if Taggart pulls a #6 on Third Street.
Maybe we need a new sheriff to figure this out. LOL
UP does not own enough R-O-W to double track through Springfield. You might be right about the rest of the route.
Also, there are a lot of legal issues here that are not being discussed and are pretty complicated.
The single tracking was typical of the 1960s and 1970s, when railroads tore out what they saw as excess capacity to save on maintenance and taxes and gain some scrap value. This proved to be very short sighted - many railroads that single tracked back then have had to go back and relay a second track in the 1990s and 2000s.
It must have been a bunch of MBA's that made the decisions back then. ;0>
No, Environmental Assessments are a direct result of Congress signing the National Environmental Protection Act of 1969 (NEPA). There were many case studies similar to the ESL project where projects were done without full disclosure and study of impacts, and minimal public participation, such as in Miami, Massachusetts, and even the original expressway system in Chicago (although the Cook County crew did a better job than most). Environmental law and policy have evolved a lot since then, mostly with more regulation and required processes, with a little streamlining thrown in.
The system has evolved to where sharp attorneys can successfully delay (but not stop) projects and gain concessions from the authorities, and every once in a while stop a project due to political pressure or finding an egregious omission in a study. NEPA documents are meant for the lawyers as well as the public.
1. This thread is a better debate of the issues than the meeting in Chicago and just as unproductive.
2. This isn't about high speed rail, it is about faster Amtrak. Grade crossings are the issue here. Could this eventually lead to HSR? Maybe, but that's far into the future.
3. Not to bash Springfield, but there are no good reasons for Chicago-area residents to visit except for the Capitol, the Fair and the Lincoln sites. You will keep the station downtown because that is the only place it can be if you expect anyone to debark when the conducter calls out Next Stop Springfield.
4. This argument and the planning debate should have occurred years ago and shame on the officials who weren't planning for this eventuality. They waited until the deadline for stimulus funding and it is way too late now.
5. UP is not the bad guy here. They own the ROW. They have 19th century laws protecting their business. Don't like it? Change the law (and good luck with that).
6. A couple of hundred Springfield residents, kept painfully in the dark by lots of officials, have just learned how this will affect them and they are rightfully upset and concerned. Shame on public officials for keeping them out of the long range planning that has been underway for some time.
7. A handful of NIMBYs should not stand in the way of this project, as terrible as it has been portrayed. This needs to happen. Now. Or those same NIMBYs will be stuck in a dying town, in a dying state, in a dying region.
8. It's time to step up Mayor Davlin. This is why we elect mayors: to make tough decisions for the good of the community (I know TII, but elections are not simply popularity contests, they have consequences).
So, let's stop a multi-billion project and high-speed rail because somebody can't take a photo the way they want to?
===So, let’s stop a multi-billion project and high-speed rail because somebody can’t take a photo the way they want to? ===
They don't want it "stopped". They want to do it correctly as has been reported dozens of times.
A consolidated 10th street corridor will cost less money, eliminate two rail lines (19th and 3rd) to create trails.
Additionally Rich & Trian111 agree === I’m pretty sure train111 is right. That’s capacity, not an actual solid plan.===
I think the posters have clarified this point 40 in the PLANNED minimum volume of train traffic. The upper capacity of the double mainline track is actually over 70 trains per day.
With a 10th consolidation you will not have to create destructive traffic delays or destructive overpasses. A 10th St. consolidation will protect the medical district while efecting less homes.
Rich, is it too much to ask IDOT & Gov Quinn to use our own tax dollars to improve & protect our job base of our community rather doing harm?
I think not!
And their power does stem back to the laws from the old robber baron days, correct?
Yes, if they are using their own money on their own property. Not so much where federal dollars are involved.