CapitolFax.com - Latest Comments in OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Cranky Old Man — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:58:46 -0000

Rich, I'm not saying stop it, but that really does need to be considered. I've worked there and photos are HUGE to the visitors. They aren't allowed to take any inside so the outside should be considered. Many people come to Spfld just to see the house. Lincoln is secondary in their minds. Also, I don't know what type of vibrations will be generated, but there are millions of dollars of lamps, windows, etc. in the house. (Of course, that is based on the antique market of the day.)

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Six Degrees of Separation — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:40:39 -0000

Railroads can do pretty much what they want, canâ€™t they?

Yes, if they are using their own money on their own property. Not so much where federal dollars are involved.

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

wordslinger — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:33:00 -0000

Railroads can do pretty much what they want, can't they? I've come across that before.

And their power does stem back to the laws from the old robber baron days, correct?

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Larry Mullholland — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:45:22 -0000

Rich Miller,

===So, letâ€™s stop a multi-billion project and high-speed rail because somebody canâ€™t take a photo the way they want to? ===

They don't want it "stopped". They want to do it correctly as has been reported dozens of times.

A consolidated 10th street corridor will cost less money, eliminate two rail lines (19th and 3rd) to create trails.

Additionally Rich & Trian111 agree === Iâ€™m pretty sure train111 is right. Thatâ€™s capacity, not an actual solid plan.===

I think the posters have clarified this point 40 in the PLANNED minimum volume of train traffic. The upper capacity of the double mainline track is actually over 70 trains per day.

With a 10th consolidation you will not have to create destructive traffic delays or destructive overpasses. A 10th St. consolidation will protect the medical district while efecting less homes.

Rich, is it too much to ask IDOT & Gov Quinn to use our own tax dollars to improve & protect our job base of our community rather doing harm?

I think not!

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Rich Miller — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:06:37 -0000

===There will be no way to get a photo of the front of the house except from the sidewalk====

So, let's stop a multi-billion project and high-speed rail because somebody can't take a photo the way they want to?

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Cranky Old Man — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:35:17 -0000

Small Town Liberal, ===I forgot the view from Lawrence behind the DTH was so beautiful currently. === I agree the the view behind the DT House ain't exactly great, but where the problems lies is with the overpass that will run on Lawrence. There will be no way to get a photo of the front of the house except from the sidewalk. Anything taken from across the street wil be the side of the overpass.

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Abe — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:19:33 -0000

rather than spend a bunch of money to upgrade and retrofit the tracks thru springfield, why not run rail along the I-55 corridor? it would minimize the need for over- and underpasses. property could be taken thru eminent domain. shuttles could run between a station and downtown. and all those agitated residents of springfield could go back to sleep and rich could enjoy his quiet little life.

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

47th Ward — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:11:50 -0000

I was a fly on the wall at a recent meeting in Chicago with Mayor Davlin, Senator Durbin, Secretary Hannig and honchos from UP. I won't pretend to have been a participant, but here are a couple of unsolicited observations on this subject:

1. This thread is a better debate of the issues than the meeting in Chicago and just as unproductive.

2. This isn't about high speed rail, it is about faster Amtrak. Grade crossings are the issue here. Could this eventually lead to HSR? Maybe, but that's far into the future.

3. Not to bash Springfield, but there are no good reasons for Chicago-area residents to visit except for the Capitol, the Fair and the Lincoln sites. You will keep the station downtown because that is the only place it can be if you expect anyone to debark when the conducter calls out Next Stop Springfield.

4. This argument and the planning debate should have occurred years ago and shame on the officials who weren't planning for this eventuality. They waited until the deadline for stimulus funding and it is way too late now.

5. UP is not the bad guy here. They own the ROW. They have 19th century laws protecting their business. Don't like it? Change the law (and good luck with that).

6. A couple of hundred Springfield residents, kept painfully in the dark by lots of officials, have just learned how this will affect them and they are rightfully upset and concerned. Shame on public officials for keeping them out of the long range planning that has been underway for some time.

7. A handful of NIMBYs should not stand in the way of this project, as terrible as it has been portrayed. This needs to happen. Now. Or those same NIMBYs will be stuck in a dying town, in a dying state, in a dying region.

8. It's time to step up Mayor Davlin. This is why we elect mayors: to make tough decisions for the good of the community (I know TII, but elections are not simply popularity contests, they have consequences).

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Six Degrees of Separation — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:38:25 -0000

Reminder: Environmental Impact Assessments began because our IDOT destroyed downtown East St. Louis in the process of putting up the I-55 bridge. Letâ€™s not let Springfield be another IDOT victim.

No, Environmental Assessments are a direct result of Congress signing the National Environmental Protection Act of 1969 (NEPA). There were many case studies similar to the ESL project where projects were done without full disclosure and study of impacts, and minimal public participation, such as in Miami, Massachusetts, and even the original expressway system in Chicago (although the Cook County crew did a better job than most). Environmental law and policy have evolved a lot since then, mostly with more regulation and required processes, with a little streamlining thrown in.

The system has evolved to where sharp attorneys can successfully delay (but not stop) projects and gain concessions from the authorities, and every once in a while stop a project due to political pressure or finding an egregious omission in a study. NEPA documents are meant for the lawyers as well as the public.

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

RJW — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:08:25 -0000

I've lived in Springfield for 12 years and have found that, most of the time, the citizens of Springfield are idiots when it comes to the development of the city. If the city had had half a brain to begin with, the overpasses and/or underpasses wouldn't be an issue b/c they would already be built. Never before in my life have I lived in a place claiming to be a "major" city that has railroad tracks blocking traffic on majory city thoroughfares. The city needs to have a city planner that is constantly working on the needs of the city. As far as the citizens who constantly play the NIMBY game, go away already. If you don't like living in the core of the city then move.

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Ken in Aurora — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:09:11 -0000

ahoy, the C&A was doubletracked along 3rd Street through Springfield until the 1960s - I'm sure the R-O-W is still intact. It was part of a single tracking project that started in Southern IL and worked its way north to Mazonia over several years.

The single tracking was typical of the 1960s and 1970s, when railroads tore out what they saw as excess capacity to save on maintenance and taxes and gain some scrap value. This proved to be very short sighted - many railroads that single tracked back then have had to go back and relay a second track in the 1990s and 2000s.

It must have been a bunch of MBA's that made the decisions back then. ;0>

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

ahoy — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:47:05 -0000

Six Degree's,

UP does not own enough R-O-W to double track through Springfield. You might be right about the rest of the route.

Also, there are a lot of legal issues here that are not being discussed and are pretty complicated.

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Honest Abe — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:19:11 -0000

=The more I read about this track issue, the more I sense the work of a diabolical hand: Hedy Lamarr (thatâ€™s Hedley)=

Maybe we need a new sheriff to figure this out. LOL

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Anonymous45 — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:15:23 -0000

BEWARE:If you have never negotiated with a railroad company, from personal experience I can tell you that they don't give a damn, and if you don't take a 2x4 in the negotiating room, you may as well not be there...if John Q. Public and community leaders don't educate thenselves and step up, they'll do whatever they please...

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

wordslinger — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:04:01 -0000

The more I read about this track issue, the more I sense the work of a diabolical hand: Hedy Lamarr (that's Hedley).

Watch out if Taggart pulls a #6 on Third Street.

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Small Town Liberal — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:00:28 -0000

- Ahem, Richâ€¦that is UPâ€™s proposal on where the overpasses would be built - one one Lawrence right behind the Dana-Thomas House. -

I forgot the view from Lawrence behind the DTH was so beautiful currently.

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Six Degrees of Separation — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:57:40 -0000

Well in some places UP could put in a second track, if they own the right of way but their not putting up their own money so what is your point?

Unless they or their predecessors sold off some of the old Alton route right of way, UP have enough room to restore the original double track that existed along the entire route.

The point is that the federal $ is both a blessing and a curse to UP's plans. A blessing because it's less $ than they will have to spend, a curse because the whold deal could go up in smoke if certain dominoes start to fall.

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Larry Mullholland — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:46:33 -0000

Train111

40 train minimum has been well documented. If anyone cares enough to look around you will see the proof. Perhaps and energetic reporter could help us correct the record on the blog today.
Additionally, I agree with Six Degrees about environmental impact issues and the giant monkey wrench being created. It could derail the entire project.

For further info I refer Rich and others to Public Act 09-0545 that calls for early, ongoing and collaborative outreach with local community leaders and affected citizens impacted by IDOT projects. The public act requires projects to exist in harmony with their surroundings. It also calls for reasonable alternatives to be considered.

Clearly, IDOT has this on this project.

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

ahoy — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:44:19 -0000

Well in some places UP could put in a second track, if they own the right of way but their not putting up their own money so what is your point?

Also, the 40 - 60 extra trains a day was given verbally by UP officials to city and county officials. I do not think UP put it in writing so there is probably not evidence. I could be wrong though.

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Capitol View — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:38:20 -0000

some random thoughts, from someone with an office just off of 3rd street --

There used to be two tracks on 3rd street, but when Willard Ice's wife drove over the tracks while the gates were still down after the train had gone through -- and was hit broadside by another train headed in the other direction, killing Willard -- this is when the second track was taken out.

Why is UP so married to the 3rd street option? Because they own most of the trackage. B&O own a good section of the 10th street tracks, so UP would have to pay rent for their increased volume. It's all about money, folks. Not Springfield's best interest.

Reminder: Environmental Impact Assessments began because our IDOT destroyed downtown East St. Louis in the process of putting up the I-55 bridge. Let's not let Springfield be another IDOT victim.

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Six Degrees of Separation — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:35:56 -0000

Also FWIW:

The only reason the Environmental Assessment is required for the second track is because federal monies are being sought. UP could do it on their own dime without much red tape.

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Anon — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:29:58 -0000

I believe the alderman's plan is to run freight around the city and passenger trains through it. At least that is how I read it.

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

Six Degrees of Separation — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:27:24 -0000

FWIW:

The addition of the second track requires a federal Environmental Assessment (sort of like an appendage to the approved Environmental Impact Statement of 2003, but in this case being done as a separate report). Before the EA can be approved, they will need to have a public process including hearing(s) and commentary from the public, the affected governments, and federal/state resource agencies. I guarantee this public outcry has put a serious unplanned monkey wrench into the high speed rail plans, considering the federal ARRA money deadlines.

The study of the alternative corridor, if extremely fast tracked, could take 18 months in this environment (not counting potential lawsuits that could tie the project up for years if not thrown out of court or settled quickly).

Also, no one is saying there "have" to be overpasses on the 3rd street corridor. The HSR trains are going to slow down to access the depot anyway. 40 trains a day? Even if it happens, there are many neigborhoods around Chicago that would love to have a *reduction* to 40 trains a day at their favorite RR crossing.

Bet the folks along the EJ&E line are hopping mad when they see the $$$ flung around for overpasses in Springfield on this project, when they might get 2 along the entire EJ&E line as a result of the CN acquisition.

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

SangamoGOP — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:23:44 -0000

train111: Michael Payette, assistant VP for UP, upon leaving the ICC meeting on 9/8/09, from the SJR, not from a politician or rabid neighborhood opponent:

"As he left Wednesdayâ€™s hearing, Payette reiterated that the 2008 track upgrades played no role in the railroadâ€™s current wish to install a parallel track through Springfield and build overpasses to allow 22 freight trains and 18 passenger trains per day to travel through the city by 2017."

Go ahead. You can read it as slowly as you want.

The link: http://www.sj-r.com/high-sp...

Re: OK, I’ve held my tongue but somebody’s gotta say it

train111 — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:05:10 -0000

An addition:

Sure UP stands to benefit from any public money poured into the Chicago-StLouis line. They benefitted when Metra put in that 3rd track between Geneva and Elburn when they expanded service too.

train111