CapitolFax.com - Latest Comments in Question of the day

Re: Question of the day

Abu Jibril — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 20:46:21 -0000

I find this discussion distressing only because it somehow pulls the discussion of race outside of the larger issues of baseball and even society, as if, as a discreet unit, it may be examined independently. We must also respect the interplay between race and society.

For example:

=== Really??? - Friday, Aug 28, 09 @ 1:09 pm:
...
The fact is, most ballplayers are either black or latin===

I'm not sure what games you are watching (maybe old tapes of Negro Leagues), but as of the 2008 season, 8.2% of MLB rosters were of African-Americans. Now, the 1970s were a high-water mark for Black involvement on the field, with seasons floating between one-quarter and one-third Black players suited up. But MLB is making up for it with over one-quarter of front offices made up of Blacks (considering the on-field involvement of Blacks in previous decades, moving from on-the-field, to behind the bench, to in the suites, makes sense).

"But," you say, "this has nothing to do with Rich's original question."

Only so far as it is embedded with such loaded pejoratives and pre-conceived notions that must first be stripped away to address the elemental question: why is race still so problematically wedded to the National Pastime?

Probably for the same reason that it is so wedded to the rest of American life--old habits are comfortable.

Re: Question of the day

TheLoweDown — Sun, 30 Aug 2009 02:07:56 -0000

I'm going to nail this one: Billy Williams aid he never heard slurs.

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com...

"I didn't hear any derogatory remarks," Williams said. "When you weren't swinging a bat real good -- and I didn't do that too often -- you'd hear people who would say things that you wouldn't appreciate. I was big enough at that time to let it slide over. The derogatory remarks, I didn't hear."

Hawkins, Baylor, Baker, Jones...all were failures on the field. I've attended hundreds of Cubs games and I have never heard a racial slur at Wrigley. I'm biracial. Does that mean it doesn't happen? No. Are there inappropriate t-shirts? Yes. Are they sold by the Cubs? No. They are sold by independent hawking vendors on the freaking corners outside.

As Steve Rosenbloom, a white man, accurately pointed out in the Rosenblog on chicagotribune.com, every fake cry of racism by someone takes credit and credence away from someone who actually faces racism.

Re: Question of the day

Reformed — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 23:36:24 -0000

It may not be racism, but rather just plain stupidity. I'll admit I am a Cardinal fan, but not a Cub hater. I've attended games at both stadiums and the atmosphere a Wrigley is that of a place to drink beer while a baseball game is going on instead of a place to watch a game and maybe have a beer while I am there.

Re: Question of the day

Just wondering — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:44:47 -0000

Now that's probably your best yet VM! Well said.

Re: Question of the day

Michelle Flaherty — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:23:07 -0000

The answer is yes. and anyone who thinks differently is racist.

(It's the Rod Blagojevich school of winning arguments)

Re: Question of the day

Concerned Voter — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:22:39 -0000

Declaring myself a White Sox fan. Unfortunately, I was at a game at Comiskey II a few years ago, the hated Indians were in town. About 15-18 rows behind first base. There was a lot of good natured stuff going back and forth for most of the game between Sox and Cleveland fans.

Late in the game, Cleveland jumped out big time. A female, short dreadlocked, African-American, Cleveland fan stood up and cheered. The she turned around and gave it too the Sox fans who had been going back and forth all afternoon, nothing bad, just fun. She was in the 4th row. From somewhere behind us, all of a sudden we heard," Sit down and shut the F--- up Whoopi!". I turned to my wife and the kids that were with us and said, "Let's get our stuff together and start heading out."

I just feel, as others have said, that there is going to be a certain percentage of racist fans, no matter where you go. Look at Soccer in Europe, they have some awful problems with racist fans there. It's not just a U.S. problem, that doesn't make it any better.

I think part of the hoopla from outside of the Chicago area is people who don't know what has transpired in the past with Baker, Jones, Hawkins, etc, just can't believe that the loveable, cuddly Cubs fans would ever do anything like that.

Re: Question of the day

VanillaMan — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:04:27 -0000

Thanks.

I have been in love with my Sox this year, and I had an awesome day attending a night game last month. Sat in the Patio, ate and drank, walked all around the Cell taking in the sights, and watching our team beat the Yanks in the bottom of the ninth. I saw Quinn with Buerle, and hung around the restricted area under the Cell and caught some autographs from the guys as they went by. We even got Derek Jeter's.

So it stinks when folks you think you share some commonality with, go all racist. It has always been an embarrassment with me. My schools were far away from the Midwest, so coming home and hearing some racial insults from supposedly college-educated "smart" people in the Loop stinks. I don't get it. I really don't understand.

My folks threatened to wash my mouth out if they ever heard anything racist. These words were on the dirty words list growing up.

It just sucks that this is a problem. It just shouldn't be.

Re: Question of the day

Responsa — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:41:00 -0000

VM's obviously playing his hand to become the next Illinois Poet Laureate--but which governor will be the one to appoint him?

Re: Question of the day

Just wondering — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:30:20 -0000

To some extent, if we're being totally honest, isn't everyone just a little racist deep down inside? As much as we try not to be, even the hint of fear of those different than we are is racism. And, to your question, I suspect Cub fans are no more racist than the rest of baseball fans.

Re: Question of the day

Rich Miller — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:23:41 -0000

That's probably your best ever, VM.

Re: Question of the day

VanillaMan — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:22:08 -0000

Take Me Out To The Ball Game

Take me out to the ball game
Hear the shouts of the crowd
Embarrassed by the nuts shouting racial cracks
I don't care if I ever go back
It's hate anyone
who is different
If we lose, they're to blame.
If they're brown, yellow or black then
We'll shout
an ugly racist name!

Re: Question of the day

getmeoutofhere — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:02:47 -0000

No...the neanderthals at the cell are just as bad.

Re: Question of the day

The Court Jester — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 16:34:26 -0000

I have sat in the bleachers many times and never heard a racial slur... Same goes for White Sox park... Milton Bradley is whiny bum.. hopefully hes one of the many the Cubs put on waivers this week

Re: Question of the day

Responsa — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 16:10:51 -0000

Ozzie's answer to the "Ozzie mows Wrigley Field" T shirts he saw being hawked outside the June cross-town Wrigley games was to buy one and wear it at his post game press conference. It made quite a statement---and was so typically Ozzie.

Re: Question of the day

Fri, 28 Aug 2009 16:05:48 -0000

A few things, and I guess this is just addressing the atmosphere during the game. Wrigley Field is within walking distance of many, many, many bars. Alcohol can be a bit of a "truth serum" when used in excess. Mix thinly-veiled racist thoughts already in the heads of many of these mostly suburban, white, frat guy, meathead "bro" Cubs fans with plentiful amounts of beer, and you have your expected result.
I haven't been to a Sox game in a while, Rich, but I would imagine that while alcohol consumption is a part of the experience on the south side, the pre-game drinking isn't as much of a tradition there as it is at Clark and Addison. Maybe that's just an assumed generalization, but it would make sense to me.

Re: Question of the day

ZC — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 16:00:27 -0000

Addendum: there's one other good source of info for this, which would be, the players themselves. They play in all the parks, or at least in one league, they talk amongst themselves. The players would be a decent source of info here.

You could do an anonymous, random survey of baseball players, like the Tribune did about five years back, and ask them which team has the most racist fans. Unfortunately that question wasn't asked in the 2004 survey; the Tribune asked things like, "What do you think is the best baseball stadium?" Which Wrigley Field won.

Re: Question of the day

TJ — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:57:34 -0000

However, I do want to make one point very clear....

... those Ozzie/Pujols mows my yard shirt are absolutely intolerable beyond anything else. Coming from someone's a Blackhawks fan, a huge supporter of Chief Illiniwek, and who thinks that the "Horry Kow" shirts are actually more cute than anything else, those shirts are completely inexcusable. The Blackhawks and the Chief are tradition and "Horry Kow" is a mildly distasteful throwback to a beloved broadcaster, but the lawnmowing shirts have no redeeming quality whatsover. Whenever I'm at Wrigley, I always shiver when I see those, and when I see someone wear them, there are anger pangs I feel that are only really surpassed when I see a moron in a pickup driving a car with a Confederate flag in the back.

Trust me when I say that that shirt does not stand for most Cubs fans.

Re: Question of the day

Beowulf — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:56:39 -0000

No. Unfortunately, you are always going to have that 2% factor that will be perceived as the stereotype for the other 98% of the Cub fans. I like to think that not all African-Americans are like Al Sharpton or Ludicrous. I like to think that the non-caucasions out there realize that not all Cub fans are morons like these few that Milton Bradley is referring to.

Re: Question of the day

Ben S. — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:54:15 -0000

When it comes to baseball, Red Sox fans are far away more racist than any other team.

Then again, Boston is a much more racist city than Chicago.

Re: Question of the day

ZC — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:49:52 -0000

How the heck could you tell?

We could speculate all we like, but nobody is going to know, unless we commission a cross-team public opinion poll. Or somebody could speak up, who has been to a lot of Cubs games (but such a person would probably be biased in the Cubs' favor). But even then, the question is, are Cubs fans _more_ racist than other fans ... so the same person would have to attend a lot of other teams' games as well.

We can speculate, but the only safe answer is nobody can be sure.

Re: Question of the day

siriusly — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:46:06 -0000

FTR - most Cub fans still like sammy saucer.

Re: Question of the day

TJ — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:34:43 -0000

===If so, are/were caucasion flops treated just as harshly? (Iâ€™m not enough of a Cubs fan to have any good examples.) ===

I'll give a very recent example for you..... Gregg and Marmol are both ridiculed extensively and actively booed when they mess up in the relief/closer role (which is often). Gregg's white, Marmol's a Latino. I've been to games where both of them have blown it, and both times I haven't heard racism against either side whatsoever, they've just been flat out called pieces of ****.

Now, is that to say that there aren't Cubs fans who would go to a racial slur against Marmol whereas they wouldn't for Gregg? Of course not. However, those "fans" are very few and far between, and based off of my experience at Wrigley and Comiskey and a dozen other Major League, Minor League, Independent League, and college-level stadiums I've been to, they are no more frequent or less frequent really anywhere.

Bad players are especially ridiculed at Wrigley, and Bradley and just about everyone else mentioned has been bad. Same's true for white players, who have also been extensively booed. Same with Baker, who was hated for ruining pitchers and not managing the team very well in clutch situations, as is beginning to likewise happen slowly to Pinella and has happened to other managers like Riggleman.

When you look at the most beloved Cubs though, that tends to cross race. Santo and Banks, Maddux and Fergie, Sandburg and Sosa (IN HIS PRIME!), race matters not. Black, white, Asian, Latino, whatever, if you produce/try, you're loved at Wrigley. Last year, despite the "Horry Kow" shirts, Fukudome was praised left and right by fans when he was good. Now that he's slumping, not so much.

It's Chicago, folks. If you can't stand the heat, either play somewhere else or do good. Race has nothing to do with it.

Re: Question of the day

siriusly — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:28:08 -0000

Agree with Jerry - the Horry Cow shirts are completely offensive. Fukudome shouldn't have to say anything, the fans should know better and not buy that crap.

Re: Question of the day

Rich Miller — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:27:45 -0000

===I donâ€™t think Cubs fans have ever jumped on the field and beaten the crap out of an umpire and the Royals first base coach ===

That guy was a Cub fan.

Re: Question of the day

Gentlement, behold! — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:25:25 -0000

==Cubs fans tend to be lakeshore liberals and north shore types.==

Maybe, but a significant amount of Cubs fans (or rather people who show up for Cubs games) tend to be Big Ten, ex-frat types, who still can't understand why the "welfare queens/pimps and hos" themed exchange party that they threw in college was offensive. I wouldn't put it past an inebreiated frat boy from yelling out racist taunts in the bleachers, which is of course a lot different than the contemplation it takes to prepare racist fan mail...

It's like the Big Ten threw up all over the north side. Yeck.