Whether Obama maintained his principles should be the subject of the debate ? So you're assuming he has principles ?
Cassandra
· 1 year ago
I'm ok with giving Obama a pass on Chicago's corrupt political machine, especially since the corruption is so well known that the entire Chicago citizenry should be indicted for keeping these folks in power for decades.
But let's be fair here...liberals have been jumping all over Sarah for taking those federal dollars in a state where mooching off the feds is the state sport. Gotta back off on that too.
Levois
· 1 year ago
We might know this in Illinois, but what about the rest of the nation. We live in Illinois so we might have an idea what we're dealing with. When someone mentions say Chicago, they might always think about how the dead votes.
Steve
· 1 year ago
What positions has Obama opposed the Chicago Democratic Machine? Any major ones? Can anyone think of anyone?
WhackyJack Express
· 1 year ago
If WhackyJack is stooping here with 40 days to go I assume he will be running adds with all the Black who endorsed Obama just to hammer home the appoint. Between this nonsense, the Keating 5 and Saracuda I cannot imagine what the typical WhackyJack supporter looks like.
Rich Miller
· 1 year ago
===in a state where mooching off the feds is the state sport===
Are you talking about Alaska or Illinois? Because Illinois consistently ranks near the bottom in per capita federal spending.
Vote Quimby!
· 1 year ago
Not one iota of doubt....in '72 PMS was portrayed as selling his soul to RJD and would 'play ball.' Unfortunately for Paul, as well as for all of Illinois, we never got to see a Simon administration. All that's left of his legacy now is a dumpy federal building, a freeway and an institute that will become irrelevant when Mike Lawrence retires this fall. Nowhere in this state do we see the statesmanship, bipartisanship and concern for the less fortunate that Paul encouraged....
JacksonJive
· 1 year ago
Even if Obama wanted to say Blagojevich was corrupt when it mattered, he couldn't because he would have been calling his pal Rezko corrupt. So, for $250,000 or more, Rezko bought his silence. Was Obama acting in the public interest or his interest? The answer seems pretty clear.
VanillaMan
· 1 year ago
==The real question is whether Obama has sold his soul over being endorsed by the organization, and endorsing some Machine candidates.==
Well, since you claim it is the real question, then "yes". When Obama endorsed Machine candidates who did a poor job in office, don't deserve re-election, and continue to fail in office, then Obama is responsible.
When Obama endorsed Todd Stroger, he lost any credibility to claim he is a reformer. When he sits back and stays mum while Chicago's corruption bleeds into the public, he can't claim to be a reformer. When Obama endorsed Mayor Daley after the Hired Truck scandal, he can't claim to be an agent of change.
The ad is correct.
wordslinger
· 1 year ago
It's still a great ad.
When you put yourself on a pedestal as Obama has ("we'll look back at this time as when the oceans began to recede, when the planet began to heal") and sell yourself as a change agent, and you don't have much of a resume, it's fair for people to point out the company you keep.
Where is the Obama ad on the Keating 5?/McCain the Deregulator? This Wall Street fiasco is a gift -- don't blow it.
wordslinger
· 1 year ago
And to the question, Paul Simon would have been a great governor.
wizard
· 1 year ago
VanillMan has it right, but forgot to add the "very smelly" Rezko deal.
hisgirlfriday
· 1 year ago
Thanks, Rich, for giving me something good to think about in government --- Paul Simon --- as it seems our Washington and Springfield politics are completely falling apart. Oh how I wish Paul Simon had won the presidency in 1988. We'd be such a better country. Must confess the reason I ultimately pulled the lever for Barack rather than Dan Hynes in 2004 wound up being the Sheila Simon endorsement.
As for Obama's cozier relationship with the Democratic establishment, I really don't think he's sold his soul. It's just a mutually beneficial cease fire as far as I can tell. And once Obama has the presidency he can tell all the hacks to go to hell and there's nothing they can do about it. I mean did he actually endorse Todd Stroger or just not endorse Forrest Claypool? I know not endorsing at all was essentially the same thing, but I just don't recall him actually endorsing Stroger.
publius
· 1 year ago
actually i would contend that a president obama might be counted as a simon legacy---it was simon's daughter's endorsement likening obama to her dad that helped people see him as a real contender for the senate---as to good public servants who co-existed with machines---in illinois we had paul douglas and governor stevenson---and the prendergast machine in missouri gave us harry truman
Louis G. Atsaves
· 1 year ago
The endorsement issue is a bigger deal than you are making it out to be. It directly contradicts Obama's claim to be a reformer and good government type when he endorsed folks like Todd Stroger and even Dorothy Tillman for crying out loud! He never said why, he just did it.
Obama himself in his resume is quick to point out his non-machine credentials then grows silent when he embraced that very same machine. His silence in the face of the many corruption scandals surrounding his Democratic "friends" in Chicago, Cook County and Springfield is shameful behavior for a so-called "reformer" who claims that he will be changing things.
The more he hangs with them, the more he is associated with them, no matter how hard the Chicago Tribune editorial page tries to explain it away.
Be a man, Obama. Walk away from those guys and be true to what you claim to believe in!
Many Republicans had their heads handed to them for endorsing and supporting George Ryan. Why the double standard for Obama?
Phineas J. Whoopee
· 1 year ago
"BARACK OBAMA: In terms of my toughness, look, first of all, I come from Chicago."
Obama should counter these machine ads with an ad saying he is tough because he took on the machine and won and now he is leading the charge for reform and has the machine leaders following his guidance.
Of course he shouldn't metion they are on board only because they want to get at the federal money after he becomes President.
Cassandra
· 1 year ago
Alaska.
Rich Miller
· 1 year ago
===Many Republicans had their heads handed to them for endorsing and supporting George Ryan. Why the double standard for Obama? ===
So, is this why you feel as you do? Also, did you notice I brought up this very subject above?
Vote Quimby!
· 1 year ago
==Sheila Simon endorsement==
Actually Paul himself endorsed Barack shortly before he died almost 5 years ago.... they didn't film a commercial before his heart surgery so she ended up in the ad. Didn't help her mayoral campaign, I guess....
While we're on the Paul Simon topic, please check out www.senatorpaulsimon.org for info about the museum in Troy, where Paul started his political career! (Events are out of date but I think they are planning something for the 5th anniversary of his passing/80th birthday later this year).
Great work on this post, Rich. Its a shame that you dont get more involved in national politics -- you could be helpful in calling out the BS and keeping candidates honest. Thanks again.
Anon
· 1 year ago
Harry Truman came up through one of the most corrupt machines in the country, and no one has seriously questioned his integrity, then or now. You have to work with and get along with the other people in office (unless you're the governor, of course), so the mere fact that Obama works and socializes with machine hacks doesn't imply that he is one of them.
The Doc
· 1 year ago
You simply can't compare Obama to the likes of a Daley, Stroger, or Blagojevich. In most cases, there's a smaller sample size, but he's never engaged in some of the more questionable and/or egregious behavior of the aforementioned.
At the risk of getting lambasted, I'm cautiously optimistic that if and when Obama is elected president, he'll bee much less reliant on the resources of the Machine, and will act accordingly. I'm not sure specifically what these actions may consist of, but a good start (albeit nothing more than a symbolic gesture) would be keeping Patrick Fitzgerald in his current post.
wordslinger
· 1 year ago
Anon 12:51, plenty of people seriously questioned Harry Truman's integrity, then and now. He had major influence-peddling scandals while he was president that resulted in dozens of firings and resignations. That was before the Special Prosecutor Era.
Based on illegal and formerly secret FBI wiretaps of Outfit guys, historians now believe his administration gave early release to Paul Ricca and Johnny Roselli from federal prison due to the Mafia's influence in the Democratic Party at that time.
Harry didn't get rich, but a lot of people around him did. We've heard that song before -- then and now.
Why do we think anyone who would pursue the position of most powerful person in the world is as pure as Ivory Soap? Read some Shakespeare, folks.
Gene Parmesan
· 1 year ago
"Harry Truman came up through one of the most corrupt machines in the country, and no one has seriously questioned his integrity, then or now."
Is this from the Joe Biden American History Seminar?
South Side Mike
· 1 year ago
hisgirlfriday,
Obama stayed quiet during the primary, when he could have endorsed Claypool over John Stroger, but then issued a public letter claiming Todd was a "progressive" who would "lead us into a new era of Cook County government." (See: http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists...)
I guess Obama was right; Stroger has lead Cook County to a new level of ineptitude. That's the similar problem with Obama's "change" motto. Change is a journey; the destination is what's important.
wordslinger
· 1 year ago
While I think the spot is good and fair, it's old news. Obama has raised $300 million. He'll keep that network whether he wins or loses.
He is so beyond Chicago politics now.
ChicagoDem
· 1 year ago
VanillaMan..you're right on the mark. I do believe the ad would havebeen more effective and more accurate if the Mayor's face would have appeared instead of his brother's; it would have given the nation an idea of how crooked dealings benefitting the connected few and how scandals continue to prove costly for the taxpayers in Chicago. And as a side note, could you believe the Mayor was indignant over the ad? Pleeeeease!
The Doc
· 1 year ago
Mayor Daley red-faced and/or stammering = somebody somewhere stated the truth.
Bill Baar
· 1 year ago
I met Dan Walker during is walk accross Illinois. Obama reminds me a lot of him.
There used to be a hard and fast line between Regular Democarts and Independent Democrats and the defining issue was Race and Open Housing.
Now we just have feuding families among Democrats.
Obama had the power to overcome that and chose not too. I think he could have done a lot of good and lost him little and helped him nationally.
If Obama were born of the machine we'd have far clearer expectations of what to expect from his administration. But he's not and there is really no machine-of-old anymore anyways.
He is very much the blankslate he wrote of, upon whom people project their wishes and desires, and what he will chose to do with all of that if elected will be a fascinating thing to watch unfold.
Hope it turns out better for Obama than it did for Dan Walker.
Pat collins
· 1 year ago
Based on illegal and formerly secret FBI wiretaps of Outfit guys
Was it illegal when it was done? I don't think so.
Paul Simon would’ve been a much better governor than Dan Walker?
I will doubt it. Walker was unable to get much done because the machine hated him, and the Rs smelled a governorship next time.
Simon may have gotten along better with Daley, but would he have DONE things much better? Yes, he would have done something, but would it have been a good thing?
Rod B has manufactured his problem with the legislature, and agressively so. Walker had a problem because he was "somebody that nobody sent."
Phineas J. Whoopee
· 1 year ago
"Me thinks he doth protest too much,"
Ah the Daley's, if only the entire country were Chicago. All McCain has to do is show a clip of Daley's rant and then roll into all the city hall scandals and there you have the next commercial.
Maybe he should just keep quiet and get the guy elected, then we can all laugh about it later.
Black Ivy
· 1 year ago
Obama may not have cut his political teeth as a Chicago machine beneficiary, but he has definitely joined the ranks...and it stinks! Keyu characteristic - 1.) use the election law to subvert the political process and 2.)pick off political opponents one by one by using surragates (or public corruption allegations or bribes or whatever).
Rich Miller
· 1 year ago
===use the election law to subvert the political process ===
How many times has an incumbent legislator ever been tossed off the ballot by the Chicago Board of Elections? Those petitions must've been pretty darned horrible. It's not subverting the process.
Pat collins
· 1 year ago
an incumbent legislator ever been tossed off the ballot
Getting your petitions right is the basic way to separate a tyro from someone who is serious about running for office.
It's not rocket science. For someone who has a ward machine in his camp, one would think he'd need to WORK at making them bad.
Just My Opinion
· 1 year ago
Obama may be way above Chicago politics now, which will make him a great candidate for governor in 2010. Until that time, he will spend the next 2 years fulfilling his 6 year term as U.S. Senator.
VanillaMan
· 1 year ago
==Harry Truman came up through one of the most corrupt machines in the country, and no one has seriously questioned his integrity, then or now.==
Yes they did. After Pendergast was dumped and lost his power, Truman had to run for re-election for his Missouri senate seat in 1940. He was grilled as the "Senator from Pendergast", and derided mercilessly throughout the campaign. Pundits believed he was an easy loser because he was so roundly chastised.
When he got his Senate seat in 1934, few US Senators would talk to him. They considered him a Pendergast dupe. He was ignored and laughed at. He was a very lonely man throughout his Senate years.
It wasn't until he showed how he mastered his duties as a US Senator during the Truman Committee WWII years, did he gain any respect beyond being considered a Pendergast stooge. After his surprise 1940 re-election, he continued to demonstrate a strong maverick streak and was on the forefront as a guy not to mess with. Since he wasn't welcomed in DC until he made a name for himself, he felt he didn't owe anyone anything. So he proved his independance.
Truman, and Chester Arthur surprised pundits and critics by revealing powerful personalities in the White House. Both men were machine stooges who refused to tow the line once they got into office. Both were denounced while in office and were extremely unpopular presidents. Truman's poll numbers make Bush's look good. Arthur was so unpopular he didn't even have enough support to be renominated in 1884.
What Obama says, and what he has done since first becoming a state senator are often at odds.
Obama is no Truman. He doesn't seem to be an Arthur either.
Louis G. Atsaves
· 1 year ago
Rich, I saw your comments earlier and did not disagree with them. But Obama elected to swim with those sharks and has no complaints over the bite marks they left on him.
Emily Booth
· 1 year ago
I saw the Paul Simon/Chuck Percy debate hosted by the League of Women Voters. One of the best debates ever. Should be mandatory viewing for anyone running for public office or desiring to hold a higher office. Daley doesn't need Obama and I'm not sure Obama needs Daley. Jesse Jackson Jr will be the recipient of any pork headed this way assuming an Obama win. Obama won his Senate seat thru the support of the anti-war groups. They worked for his campaign and got the vote out.
wordslinger
· 1 year ago
Based on illegal and formerly secret FBI wiretaps of Outfit guys
Pat, that's based on the books of Bill Roemer, former Chicago FBI agent. He planted them, eavesdropping devices, not wiretaps, my mistake, and he's the one who said they were secret and illegal.
You can look it up. Give him a google and buy his books. They're a great read.
Read Cooley and the Gus Russo books, and find out how this state really works.
Conservative Republican
· 1 year ago
Vanilla Man has it right on the money re Truman.
Before we can consider Obama as "Trumanesque", one has to follow up on Vanilla Man's backgrounder and remember that even though Truman earned respect and his stripes after 1940, he was never considered a national figure of consequence. He was a down-the-list, compromise candidate for Vice-President (the candidate of those Democrats who had become appalled with the red-leaning incumbent Wallace and wanted no more "New Dealers" on the ticket) and an accidental President (President FDR died three months into his fourth term (Truman's first term as VP)). Truman basically was a blank slate as a new President in 1945, and fairly little known throughout the country. As a new President, he was more of a Palin than an Obama.
Truman was in fact Obama's opposite: dogged by his machine background, he had to spend years advancing through the Washington politcal scene before he had a modicum of respectability. Then, fortune struck, and he became an accidental President.
Obama, by contrast, has suppressed or at least shielded his relationship with the Chicago/Cook machine and has speedily scrambled to the top of the greasy pole driven by ambition and without any long term Washington experience or Trumanesque seasoning.
All Comments
So you're assuming he has principles ?
But let's be fair here...liberals have been jumping all over Sarah for taking those federal dollars in a state where mooching off the feds
is the state sport. Gotta back off on that too.
Are you talking about Alaska or Illinois? Because Illinois consistently ranks near the bottom in per capita federal spending.
Well, since you claim it is the real question, then "yes". When Obama endorsed Machine candidates who did a poor job in office, don't deserve re-election, and continue to fail in office, then Obama is responsible.
When Obama endorsed Todd Stroger, he lost any credibility to claim he is a reformer. When he sits back and stays mum while Chicago's corruption bleeds into the public, he can't claim to be a reformer. When Obama endorsed Mayor Daley after the Hired Truck scandal, he can't claim to be an agent of change.
The ad is correct.
When you put yourself on a pedestal as Obama has ("we'll look back at this time as when the oceans began to recede, when the planet began to heal") and sell yourself as a change agent, and you don't have much of a resume, it's fair for people to point out the company you keep.
Where is the Obama ad on the Keating 5?/McCain the Deregulator? This Wall Street fiasco is a gift -- don't blow it.
As for Obama's cozier relationship with the Democratic establishment, I really don't think he's sold his soul. It's just a mutually beneficial cease fire as far as I can tell. And once Obama has the presidency he can tell all the hacks to go to hell and there's nothing they can do about it. I mean did he actually endorse Todd Stroger or just not endorse Forrest Claypool? I know not endorsing at all was essentially the same thing, but I just don't recall him actually endorsing Stroger.
Obama himself in his resume is quick to point out his non-machine credentials then grows silent when he embraced that very same machine. His silence in the face of the many corruption scandals surrounding his Democratic "friends" in Chicago, Cook County and Springfield is shameful behavior for a so-called "reformer" who claims that he will be changing things.
The more he hangs with them, the more he is associated with them, no matter how hard the Chicago Tribune editorial page tries to explain it away.
Be a man, Obama. Walk away from those guys and be true to what you claim to believe in!
Many Republicans had their heads handed to them for endorsing and supporting George Ryan. Why the double standard for Obama?
Obama should counter these machine ads with an ad saying he is tough because he took on the machine and won and now he is leading the charge for reform and has the machine leaders following his guidance.
Of course he shouldn't metion they are on board only because they want to get at the federal money after he becomes President.
So, is this why you feel as you do? Also, did you notice I brought up this very subject above?
Actually Paul himself endorsed Barack shortly before he died almost 5 years ago.... they didn't film a commercial before his heart surgery so she ended up in the ad. Didn't help her mayoral campaign, I guess....
While we're on the Paul Simon topic, please check out www.senatorpaulsimon.org for info about the museum in Troy, where Paul started his political career! (Events are out of date but I think they are planning something for the 5th anniversary of his passing/80th birthday later this year).
At the risk of getting lambasted, I'm cautiously optimistic that if and when Obama is elected president, he'll bee much less reliant on the resources of the Machine, and will act accordingly. I'm not sure specifically what these actions may consist of, but a good start (albeit nothing more than a symbolic gesture) would be keeping Patrick Fitzgerald in his current post.
Based on illegal and formerly secret FBI wiretaps of Outfit guys, historians now believe his administration gave early release to Paul Ricca and Johnny Roselli from federal prison due to the Mafia's influence in the Democratic Party at that time.
Harry didn't get rich, but a lot of people around him did. We've heard that song before -- then and now.
Why do we think anyone who would pursue the position of most powerful person in the world is as pure as Ivory Soap? Read some Shakespeare, folks.
Is this from the Joe Biden American History Seminar?
Obama stayed quiet during the primary, when he could have endorsed Claypool over John Stroger, but then issued a public letter claiming Todd was a "progressive" who would "lead us into a new era of Cook County government." (See: http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists...)
I guess Obama was right; Stroger has lead Cook County to a new level of ineptitude. That's the similar problem with Obama's "change" motto. Change is a journey; the destination is what's important.
He is so beyond Chicago politics now.
There used to be a hard and fast line between Regular Democarts and Independent Democrats and the defining issue was Race and Open Housing.
Now we just have feuding families among Democrats.
Obama had the power to overcome that and chose not too. I think he could have done a lot of good and lost him little and helped him nationally.
If Obama were born of the machine we'd have far clearer expectations of what to expect from his administration. But he's not and there is really no machine-of-old anymore anyways.
He is very much the blankslate he wrote of, upon whom people project their wishes and desires, and what he will chose to do with all of that if elected will be a fascinating thing to watch unfold.
Hope it turns out better for Obama than it did for Dan Walker.
Was it illegal when it was done? I don't think so.
Paul Simon would’ve been a much better governor than Dan Walker?
I will doubt it. Walker was unable to get much done because the machine hated him, and the Rs smelled a governorship next time.
Simon may have gotten along better with Daley, but would he have DONE things much better? Yes, he would have done something, but would it have been a good thing?
Rod B has manufactured his problem with the legislature, and agressively so. Walker had a problem because he was "somebody that nobody sent."
Ah the Daley's, if only the entire country were Chicago. All McCain has to do is show a clip of Daley's rant and then roll into all the city hall scandals and there you have the next commercial.
Maybe he should just keep quiet and get the guy elected, then we can all laugh about it later.
How many times has an incumbent legislator ever been tossed off the ballot by the Chicago Board of Elections? Those petitions must've been pretty darned horrible. It's not subverting the process.
Getting your petitions right is the basic way to separate a tyro from someone who is serious about running for office.
It's not rocket science. For someone who has a ward machine in his camp, one would think he'd need to WORK at making them bad.
Yes they did. After Pendergast was dumped and lost his power, Truman had to run for re-election for his Missouri senate seat in 1940. He was grilled as the "Senator from Pendergast", and derided mercilessly throughout the campaign. Pundits believed he was an easy loser because he was so roundly chastised.
When he got his Senate seat in 1934, few US Senators would talk to him. They considered him a Pendergast dupe. He was ignored and laughed at. He was a very lonely man throughout his Senate years.
It wasn't until he showed how he mastered his duties as a US Senator during the Truman Committee WWII years, did he gain any respect beyond being considered a Pendergast stooge. After his surprise 1940 re-election, he continued to demonstrate a strong maverick streak and was on the forefront as a guy not to mess with. Since he wasn't welcomed in DC until he made a name for himself, he felt he didn't owe anyone anything. So he proved his independance.
Truman, and Chester Arthur surprised pundits and critics by revealing powerful personalities in the White House. Both men were machine stooges who refused to tow the line once they got into office. Both were denounced while in office and were extremely unpopular presidents. Truman's poll numbers make Bush's look good. Arthur was so unpopular he didn't even have enough support to be renominated in 1884.
What Obama says, and what he has done since first becoming a state senator are often at odds.
Obama is no Truman.
He doesn't seem to be an Arthur either.
Pat, that's based on the books of Bill Roemer, former Chicago FBI agent. He planted them, eavesdropping devices, not wiretaps, my mistake, and he's the one who said they were secret and illegal.
You can look it up. Give him a google and buy his books. They're a great read.
Read Cooley and the Gus Russo books, and find out how this state really works.
Before we can consider Obama as "Trumanesque", one has to follow up on Vanilla Man's backgrounder and remember that even though Truman earned respect and his stripes after 1940, he was never considered a national figure of consequence. He was a down-the-list, compromise candidate for Vice-President (the candidate of those Democrats who had become appalled with the red-leaning incumbent Wallace and wanted no more "New Dealers" on the ticket) and an accidental President (President FDR died three months into his fourth term (Truman's first term as VP)). Truman basically was a blank slate as a new President in 1945, and fairly little known throughout the country. As a new President, he was more of a Palin than an Obama.
Truman was in fact Obama's opposite: dogged by his machine background, he had to spend years advancing through the Washington politcal scene before he had a modicum of respectability. Then, fortune struck, and he became an accidental President.
Obama, by contrast, has suppressed or at least shielded his relationship with the Chicago/Cook machine and has speedily scrambled to the top of the greasy pole driven by ambition and without any long term Washington experience or Trumanesque seasoning.