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Re: This just in…

stivo — Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:19:29 -0000

What name-calling? "D-Punjab" is name-calling? Not when Ms. Clinton herself made that joke at the home of Indian-American labor arbitrageurs who were donating to her campaign.

It was a planned hit by Obama, and richly deserved by Clinton, even though Obama wimped out with a lame-o retraction.

I expect this issue won't die. Don't blame Obama too much - if he doesn't raise it the Republicans do. Blame Clinton: how did she ever expect to duck this issue? She's been milking this campaign donor community for years and to hell with the American high-tech workers screwed over by it.

Payback is a bitch.

Re: This just in…

Whatever — Mon, 18 Jun 2007 23:49:33 -0000

Aren't democrats supposedly above all this type of name calling? Obama will get away with it because he is Obama. Others would never get away with such press realeases - let's be real!

Re: This just in…

dan l — Mon, 18 Jun 2007 23:31:19 -0000

Finally, your comments, with the mindless focus on the word â€œPunjabâ€, completely miss what reasonable minds MIGHT consider a problematic part of the memo

And the 'mindless focus' on Mike Richard's use of the "N word" made you miss what is otherwise a very funny joke.

Re: This just in…

Skeeter — Mon, 18 Jun 2007 23:31:09 -0000

I am the one who went off? You found some slur in the mere mention of the name of a region.

Who is doing "wink wink"?

Maybe you have not read the piece. Turns out, it was SEN. CLINTON who referenced the REGION of Punjab.

Further, I am not even buying this idea of "Punjab" being an ethnic slur. Other than one obscure character, you can't even establish that.

Apparently, certain regions are off limits, as the mere mention of the name might cause offense.

Let's just hope that a cartoon doesn't have a character named "Chicago." If so, I will never receive any mail -- can't send something to "Chicago", since people might be offended.

Re: This just in…

dan l — Mon, 18 Jun 2007 23:10:55 -0000

Skeeter went off:

PUNJAB IS A REGION!

SEN. CLINTON SAID SHE COULD BE ELECTED FROM THAT REGION.

Isnâ€™t that clear?

Should we bar any reference to that region?

People like you give all liberals a bad name. You are so worried about â€œnot offendingâ€ that you end up worthless and weak. You people would rather allow a stupid remark to go unchallenged than to point out the remark and in doing so, possibly make people angry.

Punjab is, in fact, a region. It is also, an ethnic slur. You should not bar any reference to the region. You should also not toss it around in a ::wink wink:: ::nudge nudge:: sort of way. That's called racist.

I do, however, find my ability to 'give all liberals' a bad name for the following 2 reasons:

1. I'm not a liberal. In fact, I vote with the little [r-wherever] most often.
2. Somehow, liberals are the only ones whom are allowed to call out racism or sexism, something that I've gotten quite good at and without any doubt whatsoever, a skill which I've spent more time inflicting upon wingnut conservatives than democrats.

Re: This just in…

Skeeter — Mon, 18 Jun 2007 21:18:31 -0000

dan l,

PUNJAB IS A REGION!

SEN. CLINTON SAID SHE COULD BE ELECTED FROM THAT REGION.

Isn't that clear?

Should we bar any reference to that region?

People like you give all liberals a bad name. You are so worried about "not offending" that you end up worthless and weak. You people would rather allow a stupid remark to go unchallenged than to point out the remark and in doing so, possibly make people angry.

Sen. Clinton made a specific comment. Sen. Obama called her on that specific comment. Welcome to politics. I would much rather see Sen. Obama attack the issue than to ignore it. It shows he's tough and willing to fight. I respect that.

Finally, your comments, with the mindless focus on the word "Punjab", completely miss what reasonable minds MIGHT consider a problematic part of the memo, i.e. the insinuation that no American of Indian orgin should donate to a campaign and that all Indian-Americans want to steal American jobs. If there was any offense, that was it and not some geographic label.

Learn what is really important, or get used to losing elections.

Re: This just in…

dan l — Mon, 18 Jun 2007 19:34:11 -0000

Give us a break with the BS, ey Rob?

The Obama camp used the word â€œPunjabâ€ specifically because Hillary and her $50,000 Indian-American supporter used the word â€œPunjabâ€ as in, she represented the Punjab region of India just as well as she represented the Empire State.

Right. That way if a black person says "Hillary is my 'n-word'", Hillary may freely refer to herself as such in some sort of strange self-identifying blackface routine. Exactly! Indian people say it, why can't we? Honestly Rob, White Guy Argument (TM) regardless of it's perceived validity with the "yeah, yeah, minorities are taking away freedom of speech!" crowd, doesn't work.

Fact is, this thing was _crafted_ to be offensive, the language was specifically chosen to use an ethnic slur about one minority group, to be sent out to a privileged folks, so that they can all have their little chuckles of "hehehehehehehe he said punjab! "

Regardless of the subtlety, ability to deny it, and/or actual intent (which we know to be offensive, anyhow) - at the end of the day, it's still racist.

Re: This just in…

Rob_N — Mon, 18 Jun 2007 16:20:02 -0000

Dan and Jerry,

Try a little less knee-jerk reaction next time.

The Obama camp used the word "Punjab" specifically because Hillary and her $50,000 Indian-American supporter used the word "Punjab" as in, she represented the Punjab region of India just as well as she represented the Empire State.

So Dan, essentially you're saying an Indian-American dude who was complimenting Sen. Clinton's support for Punjab is racist...

And that Sen. Clinton is racist for agreeing that she supported Punjab well in the Senate...

And that the Obama campaign is racist for pointing out that the junior senator from New York is all too happy to represent foreign outsourcing groups in the Senate (which she does very well as founder and co-chair of the Senate India Caucus)...

And that folks like myself and Skeeter and Jeff L. (among others) are racists for pointing out everyone else's hyperbole on this issue...

Sure.

As for your alternative of "D-India" ... that actually would seem more racist if pulled out of context as so many on this thread seem wont to do.

"D-Punjab" specifically relates to something Sen. Clinton (and her supporter) said of herself and also directly illustrates the point of the Obama team's memo, that she is too comfortable with outsourcing.

I agree that they shouldn't have used it given it's etymology, but if projections of racism are your concern "D-India" is no better.

"D-Outsourcing" or "Sen. Hillary Benedict Arnold Clinton" would've been more to the point and not even possibly construed as racist or xenophobic or whatever other misunderstandings people are having here.

(And I'm fully aware that the RNC has, within the last 72 hours, likely registered all sorts of "d-punjab.com"; "manchuriandemocrat.com" and "benedict-arnold-democrat.com" URLs. They've done it before.)

Re: This just in…

dan l — Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:35:55 -0000

That's a good point Jerry. [D] India would have been as effective. This was more deliberate.

Re: This just in…

Jerry — Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:29:21 -0000

Given the racist history of the term itself, it was wrong to use it. Not only that, but this mini-controversy distracts from the real issue. "D-India" would have been just as effective, lacked the racist overtone, and allowed people to concentrate on the actual problem. Instead, people are talking about this word.

What George Allen said technically means monkey (or something like that). Its how the term is used that makes it a slur. Ditto with what the press release. And can we quit saying "M***** Moment? Would you say N***** Moment, Rich? They basically mean the same thing.

Re: This just in…

dan l — Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:22:36 -0000

I'm getting a kick out of all the dems around here who are now defending what was racist when HRC said it, is racist when Obama said it, and is racist as it's defended.

Not as enlightened as ya thought, ey?

Re: This just in…

Jeff L. — Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:14:53 -0000

As someone who actually has read the memo and has Punjabi friends: It is ridiculous to say that either Clinton's or Obamba's remarks were hurtful or derogatory.

Why is Clinton's record on supporting outsourcing being ignored here? Are you so wrapped up in politics you don't see issues anymore? Rich, you need to sort out your priorities.

Sanjay Puri, whose was quoted in many of these stories as taking offense to Obama's memo also is a huge player in the outsourcing of US jobs to India through his company Optimos. He is founder, presient and CEO. Bill Clinton has earned 3 million in consultant fees from InfoUSA due to his friend there, Vinod Gupta. InfoUSA is also a huge outsourcer.

Doesn't anyone care here about how we have been shipping quality jobs overseas on behalf of companies that exploit every opportunity possible to enrich themselves while our economy and society suffer?

Re: This just in…

Jerry — Mon, 18 Jun 2007 09:54:25 -0000

shameful, and I'm an Obama supporter. I agree with Rich. And just because Hillary said it doesn't mean the Obama camp should have used it. A google search would have turned up the racist overtones of the term.

Obama could have made hay of the situation of Hillary supporting outsourcing American jobs without resorting to a borderline racist stereotype.

Re: This just in…

anon — Mon, 18 Jun 2007 00:56:02 -0000

R.A. 2:35...What a joke. Brosnahan or Joyce wouldn't have a chance against Lipinski. The 23rd Ward and Madigan's captains control Lipinski's base, and they actually(primarily the 13th ward) work year round. The 19th Ward has no organization. They have a lot of folks with good jobs but they don't ring doorbells. It's called laziness and a cozy relationship with our current mayor. In essence, they have absolutely no controlled vote. Look what Obama did to Hynes in his own 19th ward. The bottom line is Lipinski is in for good. At least until the hispanic poulation totally over runs the sw side. I'll give it 10 years.

Re: This just in…

YNM — Sun, 17 Jun 2007 21:11:30 -0000

I'm not saying it isn't inappropriate or that there shouldn't be consequences. The only point I want to make is that it is a bit of a stretch to call this Obama's "macaca moment".

For starters, at least in my observation, it lists HRC as being from Punjab, a real place. It doesn't refer to her as a "punjab", which would seem to be consistent with it's derogatory use. While that doesn't excuse the action, I do think it's a pretty big difference.

The reality is, unfortunately, in a campaign of this length and magnitude there are bound to be other moments that end up being worse than this, from all sides.

Re: This just in…

Bill Baar — Sat, 16 Jun 2007 08:41:41 -0000

Lots of money spent on lots of staff who are not very well managed translates into dumb statements about the Democrat from Punjab?

Re: This just in…

Anonymous — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:49:18 -0000

the weighted D vote in the 3rd congressional is all controlled by: madigan, zalewski, viverito, landek.

good luck pera (ICA)

Re: This just in…

Tom — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:38:46 -0000

Pera was a terrible house dem candidate. Alderman Reilly ran his losing campaign. Why he thinks he can win is beyond me. I hope Reilly isn't behind this.

Re: This just in…

Chuck Amuck — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:28:23 -0000

I must agree Rich's reaction to this is over the top. Politics ain't beanbag.

If HRC's people don't go on the record about this story, it will be because the campaign won't want to talk about the issue raised in the backgrounder. HRC stands to get hurt far more than BO, should this become a Big story.

Re: This just in…

So much for the 5-day work wee — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:22:20 -0000

So how many hours has Milo Blago put in the last two weeks. Lets break it down:
Flying Time:
Commuting:
Jogging:
Playing ball with neighborhood kids:
Attorney meetings:
Media Spin meetings:
ACTUAL WORK:

Anyone venture to guess.

Re: This just in…

L.S. — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:05:52 -0000

Rich - I went back and re-read the memo and my opinion stands. It's a hit on her support from companies that outsource jobs. It specificly mentions Cisco and a shady Indian investor who was arressted. It makes none of the thinly vailed racist refrences that have been used on, say, Obama by Fox news. It refrences specific relationships with specific people and corporations. I find it hard to beleive that Obama hasn't taken any money from comapnies that outsource, so it might turn out to be a little hypocritical, but beyond the Pubjab joke that Clinton made herself, please point out where this is racist?

Re: This just in…

Skeeter — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:49:35 -0000

Rich,
I've read the memo a few times now. I see a bit of a problem with the statement that Indian-Americans intend to raise money for Sen. Clinton. Other than that, the memo is fine.

Sen. Clinton raised the issue of "Punjab." Sen. Obama didn't.

If you want to try and turn this into a scandal to sell papers, be my guest. However, an analysis of the memo just doesn't support the allegation that it is outrageous.

It is not paranoid. They really are taking American jobs. It is fact. Americans are right to be concerned about the issue.

If you could point to particular lines in the memo, that might help as I just don't see the issue.

Re: This just in…

Taylor Street — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:49:09 -0000

R.A. - Mark Pera has run before for office...easy to check out.

Re: This just in…

ZC — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:32:52 -0000

LS has a point. In fairness to Obama (and I just criticized him above), I don't think this is worse than the true "Macaca" moment. Analogies can be dangerous. It would be _the_ macaca moment if during a campaign rally, Obama spotted an Indian-American and shouted out in full view of the crowd, "There! There's one of Senator Clinton's constituents! I represent America! She represents Punjab!" and the crowd clapped its approval.

What this shows is that somebody on Obama's campaign crossed the line, and I agree someone should be punished for this. But the lower down it came from, and Rich seems to know it didn't come from the highest levels, then the more the solution is fairly straightforward.

Re: This just in…

bored now — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:26:50 -0000

obama needs to come out, take responsibility for this, apologize, and then take out the idiot who pushed for this wording. it's offensive, amateurish and unworthy of a candidate who is running to bring people together...